Comments on: My First BRITISH Google Business Kit http://strangelyperfect.tv/6818/my-first-british-google-business-kit/ Crawling Across Chaos and Time Without End Fri, 12 Mar 2010 11:51:27 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=abc hourly 1 By: Strangely http://strangelyperfect.tv/6818/my-first-british-google-business-kit/comment-page-1/#comment-2058 Strangely Thu, 26 Nov 2009 12:45:31 +0000 http://strangelyperfect.tv/?p=6818#comment-2058 See this website for a pretty good write-up of all the scammy goings on! Of particular interest, is the HUGE list that's been collated of scam sites, fake blogs, fake news sites etc! http://www.killphishing.com/MegaScam.htm See this website for a pretty good write-up of all the scammy goings on! Of particular interest, is the HUGE list that’s been collated of scam sites, fake blogs, fake news sites etc!

http://www.killphishing.com/MegaScam.htm

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]]> By: Strangely http://strangelyperfect.tv/6818/my-first-british-google-business-kit/comment-page-1/#comment-2057 Strangely Thu, 26 Nov 2009 12:32:23 +0000 http://strangelyperfect.tv/?p=6818#comment-2057 @Not Kevin It's a bit of a marathon, isn't it? these legal ones are always like that. It seems to me that Willms signed up for a wodge of toothpaste off his own bat, and then changed the packaging and price to his own - or have I got the wrong end of the stick here? He then got all the returns to go back to the original toothpaste company who were then inundated with chargebacks! If this is so (and it's only their word as far as I can tell), IT DOES PROVE THAT CHARGEBACKS WORK!!! (This is in items #134 & #135). A really funny part is when the toothpaste maker, a former scammer, then lists all the various ways and methods that the scammers operate, as evidence for the nefarious Willms' acts. This is all the stuff we and others have copiously documented. <blockquote>I'm thinking teacher-pupil, pupil-teacher here!!!</blockquote> It's also that the toothpaste company now feels that their 'brand' is now besmirched by the scams and has a warehouse of stock they can't flog. My opinion on this is the Buddhist one of Cause and Effect. So THEY started the ball rolling on this one with their original scamming activities (i.e. they made the cause). THEY must take the consequences, because that's the effect. It's no good that they've suddenly decided to be legal because the consequences of their earlier actions are now to be played out. Hopefully (caution, bad joke alert), they don't move into Colon Cleansing because then the shit will really start to fly! Another interesting point is that the toothpaste company says it's been contacted by lawyers from multiple States on this one(item #153). This is good as it means that finally the whole US Gov apparatus will soon be brought to bear on these whole scammy businesses in general. I'm not sure of the case against the search engines though. The whole adwords/adsense business model is based upon an auction for word placement in the rankings, so as in any auction, people don't normally ask where you got the cash from, do they? The deep, deep irony is that Microsoft have to defend themselves in the same dock as Willms. Willms who had to pay at least $1m to Microsoft for selling forged Microsoft software, has now allegedly acted as he always does, but this time is selling fraudulent toothpaste. As I keep saying, crooks tend to operate in a similar manner time after time after time. It's what they do, and is their Achilles Heel! This really IS an interesting development. Thanks for spotting it @Not Kevin - and go to bed earlier!!! Ha ha. @Not Kevin

It’s a bit of a marathon, isn’t it? these legal ones are always like that.

It seems to me that Willms signed up for a wodge of toothpaste off his own bat, and then changed the packaging and price to his own – or have I got the wrong end of the stick here?
He then got all the returns to go back to the original toothpaste company who were then inundated with chargebacks!

If this is so (and it’s only their word as far as I can tell), IT DOES PROVE THAT CHARGEBACKS WORK!!!
(This is in items #134 & #135).

A really funny part is when the toothpaste maker, a former scammer, then lists all the various ways and methods that the scammers operate, as evidence for the nefarious Willms’ acts. This is all the stuff we and others have copiously documented.

I’m thinking teacher-pupil, pupil-teacher here!!!

It’s also that the toothpaste company now feels that their ‘brand’ is now besmirched by the scams and has a warehouse of stock they can’t flog.
My opinion on this is the Buddhist one of Cause and Effect. So THEY started the ball rolling on this one with their original scamming activities (i.e. they made the cause). THEY must take the consequences, because that’s the effect. It’s no good that they’ve suddenly decided to be legal because the consequences of their earlier actions are now to be played out.

Hopefully (caution, bad joke alert), they don’t move into Colon Cleansing because then the shit will really start to fly!

Another interesting point is that the toothpaste company says it’s been contacted by lawyers from multiple States on this one(item #153). This is good as it means that finally the whole US Gov apparatus will soon be brought to bear on these whole scammy businesses in general.

I’m not sure of the case against the search engines though. The whole adwords/adsense business model is based upon an auction for word placement in the rankings, so as in any auction, people don’t normally ask where you got the cash from, do they?

The deep, deep irony is that Microsoft have to defend themselves in the same dock as Willms. Willms who had to pay at least $1m to Microsoft for selling forged Microsoft software, has now allegedly acted as he always does, but this time is selling fraudulent toothpaste.

As I keep saying, crooks tend to operate in a similar manner time after time after time. It’s what they do, and is their Achilles Heel!

This really IS an interesting development. Thanks for spotting it @Not Kevin – and go to bed earlier!!! Ha ha.

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]]> By: Strangely http://strangelyperfect.tv/6818/my-first-british-google-business-kit/comment-page-1/#comment-2056 Strangely Thu, 26 Nov 2009 11:40:34 +0000 http://strangelyperfect.tv/?p=6818#comment-2056 It's not just with scams and scammers that people have difficulty with getting any sort of redress.... In the UK, (as you know), there are a plethora of quango and quango-like bodies all notionally devoted to helping "the consumer" battle against the mainly large large monolithic corporate business, just the same businesses that you've mentioned above who seem so unconcerned about protecting their assets. Read this rant that explores the wholly ineffectual worlds of Ofcom & Ofwat, the ICO, the ASA. It makes a good comparison with the (usually derided and toothless) BBB in the United States. In fact there is no camparison. They're about the same!!! <blockquote>http://www.pcpro.co.uk/blogs/2009/11/20/why-britains-watchdogs-have-fewer-teeth-than-goldfish/</blockquote> Fewer teeth than Goldfish!! It’s not just with scams and scammers that people have difficulty with getting any sort of redress….
In the UK, (as you know), there are a plethora of quango and quango-like bodies all notionally devoted to helping “the consumer” battle against the mainly large large monolithic corporate business, just the same businesses that you’ve mentioned above who seem so unconcerned about protecting their assets.
Read this rant that explores the wholly ineffectual worlds of Ofcom & Ofwat, the ICO, the ASA. It makes a good comparison with the (usually derided and toothless) BBB in the United States.

In fact there is no camparison. They’re about the same!!!

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/blogs/2009/11/20/why-britains-watchdogs-have-fewer-teeth-than-goldfish/

Fewer teeth than Goldfish!!

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]]> By: Strangely http://strangelyperfect.tv/6818/my-first-british-google-business-kit/comment-page-1/#comment-2055 Strangely Thu, 26 Nov 2009 02:19:10 +0000 http://strangelyperfect.tv/?p=6818#comment-2055 @Not Kevin Thanks for that. It'll have to wait for another time - I'm off to bed! 67 pages! Now that's one for a REAL insomniac! @Not Kevin
Thanks for that. It’ll have to wait for another time – I’m off to bed! 67 pages! Now that’s one for a REAL insomniac!

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]]> By: Not Kevin http://strangelyperfect.tv/6818/my-first-british-google-business-kit/comment-page-1/#comment-2054 Not Kevin Thu, 26 Nov 2009 02:10:56 +0000 http://strangelyperfect.tv/?p=6818#comment-2054 I have not had time to read the (67 page!) pdf file of the lawsuit but ScamTimes.com has read through it and pointed out some interesting insights into how these scams operate - well worth a read: http://www.scamtimes.com/product-scams/dazzlesmile-files-lawsuit-media-epic-advertising-aka-azoogle/ I have not had time to read the (67 page!) pdf file of the lawsuit but ScamTimes.com has read through it and pointed out some interesting insights into how these scams operate – well worth a read:
http://www.scamtimes.com/product-scams/dazzlesmile-files-lawsuit-media-epic-advertising-aka-azoogle/

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]]> By: Strangely http://strangelyperfect.tv/6818/my-first-british-google-business-kit/comment-page-1/#comment-2053 Strangely Thu, 26 Nov 2009 01:18:37 +0000 http://strangelyperfect.tv/?p=6818#comment-2053 @Not Kevin # Good find. It's a bit like poacher turned gamekeeper again, isn't it? I like the way the former-scammer is saying it's all Google's fault, and the other search engines. This is very much what we were all saying earlier this year as Google were taking the adwords cash and doing very little about allowing people to block them (although this had a lot to do with the cornucopia of websites, shifting and changing like the Utah desert sands). Now, it appears that Google are doing something about it, as we noticed earlier. What gets me is the whole delicious irony of it all... I mean, the former-toothpaste-scammer suing a new scammer for copyright and trademark infringement. And then suing the search engines for doing the ads that he himself invented or used? All we need now is for Jesse Willms to sue Microsoft for making software that let him be bad and the wheel will have come full circle! @Not Kevin
#
Good find. It’s a bit like poacher turned gamekeeper again, isn’t it?
I like the way the former-scammer is saying it’s all Google’s fault, and the other search engines. This is very much what we were all saying earlier this year as Google were taking the adwords cash and doing very little about allowing people to block them (although this had a lot to do with the cornucopia of websites, shifting and changing like the Utah desert sands).
Now, it appears that Google are doing something about it, as we noticed earlier.

What gets me is the whole delicious irony of it all… I mean, the former-toothpaste-scammer suing a new scammer for copyright and trademark infringement.
And then suing the search engines for doing the ads that he himself invented or used?
All we need now is for Jesse Willms to sue Microsoft for making software that let him be bad and the wheel will have come full circle!

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]]> By: Not Kevin http://strangelyperfect.tv/6818/my-first-british-google-business-kit/comment-page-1/#comment-2052 Not Kevin Wed, 25 Nov 2009 20:04:12 +0000 http://strangelyperfect.tv/?p=6818#comment-2052 Ex scammer sues current scammer? (plus Yahoo, Microsoft and Yahoo) http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2009/11/teeth-whitening-company-sues-google-microsoft-and-yahoo/ More trouble in store for Jesse Willms and Just Think Media? Ex scammer sues current scammer? (plus Yahoo, Microsoft and Yahoo)
http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2009/11/teeth-whitening-company-sues-google-microsoft-and-yahoo/

More trouble in store for Jesse Willms and Just Think Media?

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]]> By: Strangely http://strangelyperfect.tv/6818/my-first-british-google-business-kit/comment-page-1/#comment-2051 Strangely Wed, 25 Nov 2009 17:22:03 +0000 http://strangelyperfect.tv/?p=6818#comment-2051 @Ben People have had varying results because they've used a Debit Card and not a Credit Card. Some have contacted me and said that their bank has been okay and got the cash. But I've also read on other websites that the debit card is treated differently. However, and taking in the above, I think a lot of the variability is in the way that you, the conned person, actually approach YOUR bank/finance/card company... You must get it into your head that it's YOU that has been conned, that it's the scammer that IS THE CROOK, and that it's not your real problem, it's your CARD company's for allowing the scammer to get money from you. If they argue about it (as some have), just remember that the scammer BROKE their own T&Cs. That's all that matters. If they ask HOW the scammer broke their terms, well just think.... Can you contact the scammer by the routes the scammer suggests? If no, that's all the info you need. Does the scammer keep changing their phone/email or does the email not work at all? If yes, that's all the info you need! Have the goods arrived in a short time or did you get them (if at all) AFTER the so-called 'trial period' had ended? If so, that's all the info you need! Were you signed up for and/or billed for un-asked and un-notified 'services' from a party you've never heard of? If so, that's all the info you need. You see, any one of these few things is reason enough. There are a host more, but these are the main points I'd use when persuading your card company that you need all money back. Watch out for the new really stupid terms that PWW use now. Apparently, if you sign you agree not to argue that the terms are bad, that you agree to have no chargebacks until the 'case' is investigated by... PWW! ..and guess what? PWW are the judge! Oh! And you have to go to Utah as well! Oh! And the terms are huge, unnaturally so, so much so that they're deliberately designed to be unreadable. These are wholly unreasonable terms that any court would hoy out with a prison sentence, so mention them as well, if you have to. @Ben
People have had varying results because they’ve used a Debit Card and not a Credit Card. Some have contacted me and said that their bank has been okay and got the cash. But I’ve also read on other websites that the debit card is treated differently.
However, and taking in the above, I think a lot of the variability is in the way that you, the conned person, actually approach YOUR bank/finance/card company…
You must get it into your head that it’s YOU that has been conned, that it’s the scammer that IS THE CROOK, and that it’s not your real problem, it’s your CARD company’s for allowing the scammer to get money from you.
If they argue about it (as some have), just remember that the scammer BROKE their own T&Cs. That’s all that matters.
If they ask HOW the scammer broke their terms, well just think….

Can you contact the scammer by the routes the scammer suggests? If no, that’s all the info you need.

Does the scammer keep changing their phone/email or does the email not work at all? If yes, that’s all the info you need!

Have the goods arrived in a short time or did you get them (if at all) AFTER the so-called ‘trial period’ had ended? If so, that’s all the info you need!

Were you signed up for and/or billed for un-asked and un-notified ’services’ from a party you’ve never heard of? If so, that’s all the info you need.

You see, any one of these few things is reason enough. There are a host more, but these are the main points I’d use when persuading your card company that you need all money back.

Watch out for the new really stupid terms that PWW use now. Apparently, if you sign you agree not to argue that the terms are bad, that you agree to have no chargebacks until the ‘case’ is investigated by… PWW! ..and guess what? PWW are the judge! Oh! And you have to go to Utah as well! Oh! And the terms are huge, unnaturally so, so much so that they’re deliberately designed to be unreadable.

These are wholly unreasonable terms that any court would hoy out with a prison sentence, so mention them as well, if you have to.

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]]> By: Ben http://strangelyperfect.tv/6818/my-first-british-google-business-kit/comment-page-1/#comment-2050 Ben Wed, 25 Nov 2009 17:02:55 +0000 http://strangelyperfect.tv/?p=6818#comment-2050 Thanks a lot that is really useful. I am not sure which bit of the bank did advised me as it was over the phone. Someone on one of the desks dealt with me also though and she rang someone up and was being told "nothing can be done" as I had paid with my debit card and I was made to feel that it was my fault for having fallen into their scam. I had scrolled down on the log in page to see the small print but that is after the fact on giving card details as you know. I had not heard of chargeback and just Googled it and got the Which site up that gives useful info on it ( http://www.which.co.uk/advice/your-rights-when-paying-by-credit-card/chargeback-on-credit-and-visa-debit-cards/index.jsp ) so I will return to the bank armed with that info. Thanks for your help. Thanks a lot that is really useful. I am not sure which bit of the bank did advised me as it was over the phone. Someone on one of the desks dealt with me also though and she rang someone up and was being told “nothing can be done” as I had paid with my debit card and I was made to feel that it was my fault for having fallen into their scam. I had scrolled down on the log in page to see the small print but that is after the fact on giving card details as you know. I had not heard of chargeback and just Googled it and got the Which site up that gives useful info on it ( http://www.which.co.uk/advice/your-rights-when-paying-by-credit-card/chargeback-on-credit-and-visa-debit-cards/index.jsp ) so I will return to the bank armed with that info. Thanks for your help.

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]]> By: Strangely http://strangelyperfect.tv/6818/my-first-british-google-business-kit/comment-page-1/#comment-2049 Strangely Wed, 25 Nov 2009 15:15:20 +0000 http://strangelyperfect.tv/?p=6818#comment-2049 @Ben I never trust Barclays! When you said they advised you, which part of the bank did this? Remember, if at any time the company has broken ANY of their "promises" to you, as listed in THEIR T&Cs, instigate an immediate charge-back from your card company. You don't have to be unhappy with the product or anything. You don't actually have to agree with much of their T&Cs as they are plainly illegal and wouldn't stand up in court as they are tantamount to either slavery or usuary. As I see it, Barclays have told you to do the Returns part of the policy. All you need to know, is that the company hasn't obliged you and has failed in honouring it's own terms. So chargeback. Don't mess about. Don't give them a second chance. Once you've done that, it's the company's job to explain to Barclays why they think you owe them money - and trust me, they won't. I'm not sure of the mechanics of getting a class action going across international boundaries. Try on the American links in this post and related ones for the current actions going on against these modern-day money-clippers. Paul at http://www.workathometruth.com has a lot of experience in these matters and should be able to give you some pointers at either joining a class action or initiating one for yourself and others. Much better than me! So Good Luck. @Ben
I never trust Barclays!

When you said they advised you, which part of the bank did this?

Remember, if at any time the company has broken ANY of their “promises” to you, as listed in THEIR T&Cs, instigate an immediate charge-back from your card company.
You don’t have to be unhappy with the product or anything.
You don’t actually have to agree with much of their T&Cs as they are plainly illegal and wouldn’t stand up in court as they are tantamount to either slavery or usuary.
As I see it, Barclays have told you to do the Returns part of the policy.

All you need to know, is that the company hasn’t obliged you and has failed in honouring it’s own terms.

So chargeback. Don’t mess about. Don’t give them a second chance.

Once you’ve done that, it’s the company’s job to explain to Barclays why they think you owe them money – and trust me, they won’t.

I’m not sure of the mechanics of getting a class action going across international boundaries.
Try on the American links in this post and related ones for the current actions going on against these modern-day money-clippers.
Paul at http://www.workathometruth.com has a lot of experience in these matters and should be able to give you some pointers at either joining a class action or initiating one for yourself and others. Much better than me!

So Good Luck.

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]]> By: Ben http://strangelyperfect.tv/6818/my-first-british-google-business-kit/comment-page-1/#comment-2048 Ben Wed, 25 Nov 2009 14:50:26 +0000 http://strangelyperfect.tv/?p=6818#comment-2048 I just lost £49.42 to them + £6 to get an international airsure letter sent to them and would gladly pay more to pool together with other disgruntled folk to pay to see these folks hurt! Best of it is that Barclays initially advised me not to worry and that they would get back money for me and now it has been taken they don't want to know! I just lost £49.42 to them + £6 to get an international airsure letter sent to them and would gladly pay more to pool together with other disgruntled folk to pay to see these folks hurt! Best of it is that Barclays initially advised me not to worry and that they would get back money for me and now it has been taken they don’t want to know!

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]]> By: Strangely http://strangelyperfect.tv/6818/my-first-british-google-business-kit/comment-page-1/#comment-2045 Strangely Mon, 23 Nov 2009 22:47:03 +0000 http://strangelyperfect.tv/?p=6818#comment-2045 You can't make the shark thing up, can you? Ha ha. As for the spam king.... as it was a lady judge, it's a case of wham, spam, no thank you mam! BTW, I got a little mini-flood of Google Money Kit spam just an hour ago. It's like the return of a bad rash. You can’t make the shark thing up, can you? Ha ha.

As for the spam king…. as it was a lady judge, it’s a case of wham, spam, no thank you mam!

BTW, I got a little mini-flood of Google Money Kit spam just an hour ago. It’s like the return of a bad rash.

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]]> By: Not Kevin http://strangelyperfect.tv/6818/my-first-british-google-business-kit/comment-page-1/#comment-2044 Not Kevin Mon, 23 Nov 2009 22:39:18 +0000 http://strangelyperfect.tv/?p=6818#comment-2044 Sharkreview!! Brillant. Somebody should tell him/her that sometimes Sharks go to prison for spamming. ;) http://www.detnews.com/article/20091123/METRO/911230388/1013/Mich.-junk-e-mail-king-gets-prison-in-penny-stock-scam (Just Think Media take note) http://www.webcops.net/ Sharkreview!! Brillant. Somebody should tell him/her that sometimes Sharks go to prison for spamming. ;)
http://www.detnews.com/article/20091123/METRO/911230388/1013/Mich.-junk-e-mail-king-gets-prison-in-penny-stock-scam

(Just Think Media take note)
http://www.webcops.net/

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]]> By: Strangely http://strangelyperfect.tv/6818/my-first-british-google-business-kit/comment-page-1/#comment-2043 Strangely Mon, 23 Nov 2009 16:09:22 +0000 http://strangelyperfect.tv/?p=6818#comment-2043 @Not Kevin We want heavyweights! Now this one below will make you chuckle, I'm sure! I've just had some weird WordPress comment spam arrive today, all pinging page/posts on my band website like this page here: http://crawlingchaos.co.uk/discography/sex-machineberlin This one arrived from 88.16.152.133 and was called, "Nothing fails like success." I don't normally backlink to bad-web sites, but this is different - yes. The commenter's URL was a YouTube video!!! Now watch the video because it's obviously been written in either a non-English language or it's using the M$ speech engine. It sounds absolutely robotic! Needless to say, it's a money-making opportunity of the highest order (<em>sarcasm detector went right off-scale there!</em>) and a blogger has already taken umbrage in the video comments!. httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_sx9JBQrFY If you trace it through it's all whois protected and the URL route I was taken went like so: sharkreview.com (yes really!!!) blogocom.com/my-online-income-system my-online-income-system.com Nowhere, in any of this, are there any contact details. It's supposed to be operating under Adams County, Colorado laws, but well, y'know? Handily, they give a heap of other scammy URLs you can use if you choose to be an affiliate of this muck. Anyway, that's a new one for me! @Not Kevin

We want heavyweights! Now this one below will make you chuckle, I’m sure!

I’ve just had some weird WordPress comment spam arrive today, all pinging page/posts on my band website like this page here:
http://crawlingchaos.co.uk/discography/sex-machineberlin

This one arrived from 88.16.152.133 and was called, “Nothing fails like success.”

I don’t normally backlink to bad-web sites, but this is different -- yes. The commenter’s URL was a YouTube video!!!
Now watch the video because it’s obviously been written in either a non-English language or it’s using the M$ speech engine.
It sounds absolutely robotic! Needless to say, it’s a money-making opportunity of the highest order (sarcasm detector went right off-scale there!) and a blogger has already taken umbrage in the video comments!.

If you trace it through it’s all whois protected and the URL route I was taken went like so:

sharkreview.com (yes really!!!)
blogocom.com/my-online-income-system
my-online-income-system.com

Nowhere, in any of this, are there any contact details. It’s supposed to be operating under Adams County, Colorado laws, but well, y’know?

Handily, they give a heap of other scammy URLs you can use if you choose to be an affiliate of this muck.

Anyway, that’s a new one for me!

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]]> By: Not Kevin http://strangelyperfect.tv/6818/my-first-british-google-business-kit/comment-page-1/#comment-2042 Not Kevin Mon, 23 Nov 2009 15:41:14 +0000 http://strangelyperfect.tv/?p=6818#comment-2042 The claims made by the fake blogs for Acai and Colon Cleansers are getting more ridiculous too! The ads for this flog are all over Yahoo (thanks to bluelithium.com ad network) - Check out: getting-ripped-fast.com (More like getting-ripped-off-fast.com ! :) And not content with pissing off Oprah enough to make her sue them, the new celebrity face of Acai is: Britney Spears! http://www.dmconfidential.com/blogs/column/Trends/2464/ Like the 'Google Kit' flogs which don't just 'imply' endorsement with prominent pictures/logos but actually make up fake quotes from Google ("Google says..") the Acai one makes up quotes from Britney: ["This is the only thing that worked for me" Britney told Leno about Extreme Acai Berry.] The 'get ripped' fake blogs are also using fake celebrity endorsements which this appropriately named website forum has done a good job of investigating: http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=90729 Lets hope some heavyweight celebrity lawyers start 'ripping' into the people behind this garbage sooner rather than later. The claims made by the fake blogs for Acai and Colon Cleansers are getting more ridiculous too!
The ads for this flog are all over Yahoo (thanks to bluelithium.com ad network) –
Check out: getting-ripped-fast.com
(More like getting-ripped-off-fast.com ! :)

And not content with pissing off Oprah enough to make her sue them, the new celebrity face of Acai is: Britney Spears!
http://www.dmconfidential.com/blogs/column/Trends/2464/

Like the ‘Google Kit’ flogs which don’t just ‘imply’ endorsement with prominent pictures/logos but actually make up fake quotes from Google (“Google says..”) the Acai one makes up quotes from Britney:
["This is the only thing that worked for me" Britney told Leno about Extreme Acai Berry.]

The ‘get ripped’ fake blogs are also using fake celebrity endorsements which this appropriately named website forum has done a good job of investigating:
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=90729

Lets hope some heavyweight celebrity lawyers start ‘ripping’ into the people behind this garbage sooner rather than later.

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